Finally, I got a chance to respond.
So without God you'd be an immoral person.
No. First, let me refocus our discussion. You said there was no evidence for God. I'm trying to show one evidence. Namely, that you believe in an objective morality deep down inside, even if you disbelieve in it on the face of things.
I don't know about morals, but it's funny you said "deep down you know there's a god", because I always says that theists know, deep down, that there isn't a god.
How would we not know? To really not know, we would need to know everything. At best, intellectually, we would have to be agnostics. Although practically that's atheism, it is a far different belief. And it far short of saying I _know_ there is _no_ God. Try to prove there is no gold in Alaska. It's a lot easier to prove there is gold in Alaska.
The reason I'm moral isn't because someone told me to, or because I'm scared of punishment.
That is one reason many people are moral. I'm not talking about why you behave the way you do though. I'm tlaking about what you deep down know and feel.
It comes from a recognition that every individual is an individual, and that no one has the right to force anyone to do anything against their will.
Why not? You used the word "right." Where does this right come from? If it is not intrinsic in the nature of our being... if there is not an underlying objective morality which undergirds your statement... in short, if there is no God, your statement would be meaningless. Which is why I said deep-down you know there is a God. Your conscience bears witness. Kind of ironic that your reply to me proves my point.
Thus, in my ideal world there'd be two rules - don't use (initial) force, and don't lie or cheat. No god.
More morality that flows out from your inside.
Morality with god is the sham - would it be moral to kill children if god said so (and indeed does say so)?
Now this is a better objection. But I'm not willing to get into it until you concede the point that God exists. Then, and only then, will I get into this with you. This argument is a good one against the Bible's revelation about God, not against God's existance in general. But if you are interested, I would suggest Lee Strobel's the Cast for Faith, which devotes a chapter on this. Also, "Holiness of God" by RC Sproul.
Interestingly, a survey by a *fundamentalist christian* on the morals of non-christians & born-again christians backs me up. Christians are more likely to divorce, less likely to give to charity... on the others the figures are very, very close. Check the results (can't find the original source) at http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/september99/barker.html
I agree with you. But guess what? 1, I never argued Christians are superior to non-Christians. 2, you are proving my point again.
You dislike hypocricy. This shows again that your underlying moral sense of right and wrong which you have in you, which points to the existance of God.
It's not a sham that I don't go around killing people. Why don't you? And you seriously believe that people deserve to go to hell?
Yes. Punishment fits the crime. Just for a second everything I'm saying is true. You don't think it is, but just for argument's sake.
Let's assume God, infinite in glory and goodness and kindness and beauty, creates creatures who owe him whole-hearted obedience and love and worship. Let's assume these creatures commit treason frequently. I would argue that they deserve hell. Just for ingratitude, they deserve hell. Frankly, I deserved hell and so do you. If this seems rough, may I suggest that your problem is that your pride is hurt. It hurts your pride to tell you that you actually deserve something this awful.
Lastly, are you saying it would be wrong for people to be sent to hell? Your outrage is showing me that you believe in morality.
For Adam and Eve committing a crime that wasn't even a crime?
You have plenty of your own treason to go to hell for. And btw it is a cosmic crime to commit cosmic treason.
You think this is unjust. Yet again, you are proving my point. You object to this depiction of God on moral grounds...showing you believe in morality...ergo God.
I honestly don't understand how a human being could think like that. So much for morals.
So you don't understand. I think the more you understand God's nature and your nature, the more what I said will make sense.
How exactly did you come to the conclusion that Jesus takes punishment for our sins?
While it wasn't entirely a rational decision, I came to a determination that the apostles died for what they believed in and that there is no plausible alternative for their actions except what they witnessed to was true.
Or that evil exists, therefore God exists? That doesn't seem to make sense at all.
Well, I think it makes perfect sense. Evil assumes an objective morality. If there is an objective morality, there must be God. So if you assume evil exists, you must assume God exists too. You can't have any conception of a crooked line, unless you know what a straight line is. You must have a frame of reference. Without God, no frame of reference. Just random events.
Frank
thanks for the feedback
regards,